Dan Smitley - What do we want from AI in WFM?
Dan Smitley - What Do we Want from AI in WFM?
00:00:00 Dave Hoekstra: Welcome to Working Smarter, presented by Calabrio, where we discuss contact center industry trends and best practices, as well as sharing success stories and pain points with some of the most innovative in the industry. We're glad you're joining us today to learn and grow together. In order to provide world class customer service to each and every one of our collective clients. My name is Dave Hoekstra, Product Evangelist for Calabrio, and my guest today is Dan Smitley. Dan is a well, it's not quite a self-proclaimed, but he is a industry renowned WFM expert. You may have seen if you follow Dan on LinkedIn, you may have seen Will Ferrell GIFs posted religiously every Friday, which is a favorite. But he's also the founder and principal consultant of two three consulting, and we're very excited to have him join us today. Dan, thanks for joining us. How's it going?
00:00:49 Dan Smitley: It's not great, man. I appreciate the, uh, the intro. Um, and always the reference to to Will Ferrell gifts. It's something I started a long time ago, and it just can't stop. I literally just got a voice message today saying, please don't ever stop this. So happy
00:01:02 Dave Hoekstra: Yes.
00:01:02 Dan Smitley: to be here, Amanda. And share a couple smiles.
00:01:05 Dave Hoekstra: I'm in a glass case of emotions. Just thinking about it. Uh, I love it. Yeah, we all love a good Will Ferrell gift. And I have to say, I think the
00:01:13 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:01:13 Dave Hoekstra: funniest thing Will Ferrell has ever done singularly
00:01:16 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:01:17 Dave Hoekstra: is now he's done a lot of great stuff. I mean, he got he wrote more cowbell, not just performed in it, but wrote more cowbell. But the scene in the Other guys, when he hits Mark Wahlberg in the face with his wooden gun is about the funniest thing that I've ever seen. But that's not what we're here to talk about. Uh, I wanted to have you on today because, like, like every other software company in the world. Uh, Calabrio is morally obligated to discuss AI, right? It's the thing we
00:01:45 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:01:45 Dave Hoekstra: have to do, right? Uh, no.
00:01:47 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:01:48 Dave Hoekstra: We love. We do love us. Some I and we. It is, it is crept and crept and crept and more and more into all of our lives on a daily basis. But one of the things that we continue to ask is, what is I going to do for us, especially in WFM? Like, what do we really want it to do? Now, that's what I want to talk to you about today. But before we get into that, knowing that's the context of what we're talking about. Tell
00:02:13 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:02:13 Dave Hoekstra: us a little bit about how Dan Smith got to where he is today and what's your background. Tell us your story. Let us know what WFM means to you. Right. Really I know you're super passionate about it, but how about making sure our audience knows?
00:02:27 Dan Smitley: I mean it's just like all of the other WFM professionals, I wish I had a more like uh original origin story but it's the same. Right. You start on the phones, you get an opportunity to do a little bit something off of the phones and you stumble into normally Excel spreadsheets, right? Like, that's where a lot of us get something is, oh, I'm decent at these numbers. And maybe I wasn't a math person. Maybe I was, but Excel just makes sense. That's literally what it was. I just started with a company about six months as a supervisor. Um, my wife is pregnant. We need to move to be closer to her family. Um, because she wasn't able to work while she was pregnant. And I was like, I know I just started, but, like, do you guys have something in Northeast Ohio? They're like, actually, it's our headquarters and you're good with spreadsheets, so come on in. And I joined the command center not knowing what it was and genuinely was in WFM, probably about eight years before I knew, oh, this is actually called workforce management, not just a command center strategist. Um, been around a couple times. BPO, in-house startup, large healthcare. Like I've been kind of all over the place. Um, but really the passion is around people, and I've seen that workforce management allows me to have some of the greatest impact on people, both as customers and employees. And that's really why I continue to stay here.
00:03:50 Dave Hoekstra: I think it's crazy, because my intro to that whole thing was almost the exact same thing. And yeah, we're starting up this thing called the Command Center, and I'm like, what's a command center? And it's like, you know,
00:04:02 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:04:02 Dave Hoekstra: this was like before WFM was even really called WFM. It was because we used TCS. If I'm going back to
00:04:10 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:04:10 Dave Hoekstra: really old school. Right. It's, uh, and and it's kind of funny to hear that the words command center really meant something around the turn of the century. That was a
00:04:19 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:04:19 Dave Hoekstra: really big thing for a lot of people. But that's great. And so let me ask you, like you said, you loved the people part of it. Are you a math guy? Do you consider yourself a math guy?
00:04:30 Dan Smitley: I'm a numbers person but I'm a people guy. I've matured I'll say this I've matured into a people guy. So math I loved was my best subject up until about geometry. And then
00:04:42 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:04:42 Dan Smitley: I kind of capped out, right.
00:04:43 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:04:43 Dan Smitley: So I had solid up to that point. Um, but just math numbers make sense. I'm like, oh, if I change these variables, um, it does something new for other people. And I think I just am always a step ahead on that. So it's never been like my thriving passion. Um, but yeah, bit of a bit of a numbers guy because it makes a little sense to me, and I, and I kind of get it maybe a little bit better than others.
00:05:06 Dave Hoekstra: See, this is what's wild for me. I have
00:05:08 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:05:08 Dave Hoekstra: hated math since two plus two is four. Like, I hate math. And like you said, geometry is like where it all really fell apart for me. Uh, and then, like, literally to the point where when I was choosing a major in college, it was like, which one has the least math? I was like, I could go for like, ancient Egyptian literature. Like, that
00:05:28 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:05:28 Dave Hoekstra: doesn't have a lot of math in it. But I ended up going as an English major. Right? And I
00:05:33 Dan Smitley: Interesting.
00:05:33 Dave Hoekstra: still had to take math. And I hated it so much. Like, it was just I still to this day. Do you ever. I'm almost 50 years old, and I still wake up every day being like. I'm glad I don't have homework today. So,
00:05:46 Dan Smitley: Ay ay ay. Men,
00:05:47 Dave Hoekstra: yeah.
00:05:47 Dan Smitley: I do have a question for you. We we can we can cut this if you want. But as a non-math person in WFM, do you ever have that small little imposter syndrome, that little bit of like, I'm I'm not legit because I can't figure out blah, blah, blah forecasting term that I barely even understand or know.
00:06:09 Dave Hoekstra: Um, for me, no, I don't. And I think it's because I've always I've. I put my complete and total faith in whatever tool I'm using, not just WFM, but Excel. It was like, I like the concepts of math. I like the end result of things that math can show. I liked I liked looking at a huge spreadsheet of data and mining the anomalies and finding the little things that the stories that it could tell. I just didn't like the the mechanics and the execution of it. My brain has never been very good at recognizing patterns and things like that. Like, do you remember the game, Simon, when we were kids? You know, I hate
00:06:50 Dan Smitley: But.
00:06:51 Dave Hoekstra: that game, that I don't get anxiety, I get anxiety thinking about the game, Simon, because patterns make my head go crazy. So I've always learned to just be very, very reliant on the tool to execute the strategy for me and help deliver the end result. Right? So I don't really worry about it now. I will say in conversations with very mathy WFM nerds again, I can I can talk those kind of things. But if if you asked me to sit down with an Excel spreadsheet and say, calculate this like reverse engineer Erlang and and do this like I'd be like, you know what? I'm out. It's not my forte. It's not what I do best. I understand what Erlang can deliver and that was what I ended up loving about. WFM is the the people part of it appealed to me very, very strongly, but the math part of it helped me explain to the people why. And I think that's what made me pretty decent at workforce management, was that I could translate to human beings what the math was trying to tell us. Right.
00:07:59 Dan Smitley: 100%. I'm right there with you. And I think even though it was just a mild curiosity, I do think it's helpful context. As we discuss AI, where we are coming to the conversation as two individuals who are simply comfortable trusting the tool, trusting the math, and then leaning into our skills and strengths as maybe people leaders, maybe as connectors. Right. And so I think
00:08:20 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:08:20 Dan Smitley: that will be an interesting framework, because so many people, I think, are looking at AI as well. How does it do this? How does it do that? And if I don't know how it works, I'm not going to trust it or afraid of the hallucinations, so I'm going to throw it out completely and never touch it again. Where I think maybe you and I maybe have a more inclination to say it's a tool.
00:08:44 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:08:45 Dan Smitley: Can it help me get to where I need to go, can allow me to leverage my skills elsewhere? So I think for at least for me, and I have a follow up question as we get into this, because
00:08:52 Dave Hoekstra: Okay.
00:08:53 Dan Smitley: I think there's something else here of like, if you're comfortable trusting the tool and not necessarily knowing the hard and fast of that forecasting, what happens when dot dot dot insert
00:09:03 Dave Hoekstra: Sure.
00:09:03 Dan Smitley: second question later.
00:09:05 Dave Hoekstra: And that's that's the funny thing is, it's like when we talk about I, I think this is why I have such a pragmatic approach to AI is because I really don't give a crap what happens in the black box of magic, as long as the the result is something that does things that I need it to do. Does it make my life easier? Yes. Does it deliver the answer that I want? Yes. Does it make other people look smarter? Yes it does. I mean, you could argue that in the very early days of having workforce management software, that was akin to what an AI is delivering to some people today, like, are you kidding me? I can create an integration to an ACD and have it spit out a forecast with like, very minimal work. Do you know how much work it takes me to build a forecast? Like, I think about those very early days of me building the spreadsheet of trying to have a forecast, because TCS really didn't do forecasting. TCS was a little bit more of a scheduling program that what you once you fed it data, it would do some great things with it. I had those, you know, 17 tab spreadsheets that, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Right. You know, all the intervals and cross-referencing and vlookups and all kinds of things. And it was like when, when you could get a WFM program to just say, I'm taking the integration and creating a forecast like, that's magic. And now it's kind of boring magic to us. Um, and now we want more. And that's where we are kind of with the discussion of AI is I think this is the question I love to post to WFM professionals. What do you want AI to do for you?
00:10:42 Dan Smitley: I think the challenge to answering that question, I'll try to answer it myself, but I think part of the challenge with answering that question is, as WFM professionals, we've often always I hate using always, but it feels like it's an always statement. We've always said WFM is part science, part art, right?
00:11:00 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:11:01 Dan Smitley: Like the really science people begrudgingly being like, okay, sometimes you can have a little bit of art, a little bit of gut, but you know, the gut people are like, man, like the science will be figured out elsewhere. And I think that's part of the challenge is where can can I do both? Because I have
00:11:16 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:11:16 Dan Smitley: a really hard time seeing I don't know about your Facebook Reels or Instagram Reels or whatever mine are getting filled up with. I just slop right? Like it is just clear. I video a, you know, a bride cutting a cake that just kind of melts away. But then also she's got three arms, but only two arms, like it's
00:11:34 Dave Hoekstra: Right.
00:11:34 Dan Smitley: this and
00:11:36 Dave Hoekstra: 16
00:11:36 Dan Smitley: it's just
00:11:36 Dave Hoekstra: fingers.
00:11:37 Dan Smitley: right. And it's just there's so much crap in it. Um, and it's really hard to be able to say, wait, how do we make sure that we're leveraging this appropriately inside of WFM? How do we make sure that the art piece is solid? Because I think the science is easy. Do you see that? I feel like, at least for me, I think about the science part of WFM and I'm like, sure, that's just automation. That's just AI. They're going to figure it all out on their own. Um, it can do XYZ. It can do auto scaling, right? Based upon service levels, move agents around, and to do new skills based upon service levels, to offer up additional hours or reduced hours proactively. Like I'm assuming that it's all going to get there. I think the art piece. I don't think AI is going to touch that for
00:12:26 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:12:26 Dan Smitley: for
00:12:27 Dave Hoekstra: So give
00:12:27 Dan Smitley: years.
00:12:27 Dave Hoekstra: give me a couple of examples of what what you see as the art piece. Right. When
00:12:32 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:12:32 Dave Hoekstra: you when you say art, I have my idea, but I'm interested to know what you what what you consider the art of WFM.
00:12:40 Dan Smitley: Yeah. So it's the gut. It's the intuition. It's
00:12:43 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:12:43 Dan Smitley: the feeling that you know I'll think back a couple of my environments where like you just know you don't touch this supervisor's coaching sessions. Right.
00:12:54 Dave Hoekstra: Right.
00:12:54 Dan Smitley: They freak out like everyone else is. You can touch everyone else is. They're like yeah like I get it. Surface levels. You can move my coach. That coach. Dave, Dave, you don't touch. Dave's coaching, right? He has
00:13:06 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:13:06 Dan Smitley: to have it Thursdays at 2 p.m.. Um, that's the art. I mean, where, like, you can create a hard and fast rule of Dave, but what about Raymond? And Raymond's
00:13:15 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:13:15 Dan Smitley: a little bit like he has to have it Thursday. Friday? He likes mornings. There's these kind of preferences that we have maybe built around scheduling for the agents, But it's interacting with our it's interacting with operations. It's it's the art. It's the intuition of well, we know that marketing just dropped this, but it's the same thing as that. But it's the fifth time that they've done it, so it probably is going to have a lesser return. And so you're like 0.75 increase instead of 0.8 like it was last time. That's what I mean by artist. This. Yes
00:13:49 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:13:49 Dan Smitley: it's kind of mathy but it's total gut.
00:13:52 Dave Hoekstra: Man. Are you familiar with Plato's cave analogy? Right. Did
00:13:55 Dan Smitley: Yes.
00:13:55 Dave Hoekstra: you get deep enough into philosophy? Like
00:13:57 Dan Smitley: Yep.
00:13:57 Dave Hoekstra: you just. You just pulled away the shadows from the wall and turned me towards the mouth of the cave. Because I'll be honest, like when I think about AI and WFM, especially the art part, I'm usually thinking about special events, and I'm usually thinking about how the forecast kind of plays around with, oh, I will never know that marketing forgot to send the email about free shipping Friday, right? Like those are the things and and those are the examples I want. I had
00:14:25 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:14:25 Dave Hoekstra: never really conceptualized what it means on kind of the, the, the really granular scheduling side of things of of thinking about. Okay. Yeah. Like you said, like do not move Dave's lunch. Like because he will march into your office and he will complain for 45 minutes that you moved his lunch. Right. I, I think back, um, I love I love telling this story. I had a guy that, um, we did a shift bid, right? And this was, it was one of our top performers. But he was very particular. Right. He's one of those agents that you love, right? Always on time, always doing what he needs to do. Good stats. Right. But not the most, like, conversational person in the world. And we did a shift bid. I think he was ranked like number two in the shift bid. Right.
00:15:19 Dan Smitley: Solid. Solid.
00:15:20 Dave Hoekstra: So we put the shift bid bit out. It's about 150 agents. You know, this is the old days of shift bids, paper sheets, you know, a week and a half of sending them in and and then capturing it all by hand. And I get to him. His name was Jim. And I'm looking. And I noticed that, like, his selections are all weird, right? But he was number two, so he got his first choice. And I think this is a good example of the art because I was like, something seems weird here. So I went to Jim before I got too deep into this thing. And I was like, hey man, you're ranked number two. You have always worked like the 2 to 10 shift. Always. And I'm looking at your bid. And your first choice on this was the 7 to 4 thing. I was like, are you making a change here? And he was like, he goes, no, I just I was positive I wouldn't get my first choice. So I made my second choice and I was like, oh, that's not the way it works, buddy. Like, you're you're number two. You're gonna get whatever.
00:16:24 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:16:25 Dave Hoekstra: But and I and I was able to say to him, hey, uh, I'm going to let you redo you because I know what you were going for here. It wasn't like a super procedural thing, and we were able to get it fixed and without a lot of fanfare. And it wasn't like we broadcast all the results and. And your description of how I can't do those kind of things like that never even popped into my head
00:16:48 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:16:48 Dave Hoekstra: until just now. And that's such an insight. But but that doesn't mean an optimized routine in WFM has the same problem, right? When you hit optimize, but you still need a human being to go, okay, don't optimize this person's shift, right?
00:17:06 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:17:06 Dave Hoekstra: Those kind of things. And so that is a great example of maybe how the art part. Okay, I want to talk about the science part, but I think a lot of people, like you said conceptually, we can we can easily figure out what we want to do with the science part? The art part? How can I help with some of that? Do do do we have an answer to that question? Or is this where we're still all just mightily struggling?
00:17:32 Dan Smitley: I don't. We're mightily struggling to answer the question. I have ideas of what this could look like, and I think the reality, the challenge is the science piece is us automating and creating the rules and helping the AI environment to understand our SOPs, do X and then do Y, and then do Z, and then maybe we can automate eight out of the ten steps in the last two steps is just a human interaction. But that's the science piece. I think the art piece is all of the stuff that we are uncomfortable writing down. Like I maybe whispered to you, never touch Dave's lunch, right? Like he freaks willing to write that down. I'm not willing
00:18:11 Dave Hoekstra: Right.
00:18:11 Dan Smitley: to be like this particular agent is a special case, and I'm never right. So it's all of those pieces, the art pieces, right where, like, you know, this VP freaks out every Monday morning because they forget that blah, blah, blah happens. I can't tell that to an AI. What
00:18:26 Dave Hoekstra: Right.
00:18:26 Dan Smitley: if what if VP tries to ask for the logs? And I think
00:18:29 Dave Hoekstra: But but
00:18:30 Dan Smitley: yes.
00:18:30 Dave Hoekstra: you can do you can do something along the lines like if the tool
00:18:33 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:18:34 Dave Hoekstra: is good, like, I could go in and I could lock all of Dave's lunches, right? I could,
00:18:40 Dan Smitley: Yep.
00:18:40 Dave Hoekstra: I could say, hey, like and I think this is where I think the, the, the logical conclusion of our conversation is probably going to end up is what AI is good at. Is processing language, right.
00:18:56 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:18:56 Dave Hoekstra: We we've seen it before. I mean, ChatGPT is a modern marvel, right? The ability to have conversations with it. My my wife now calls ChatGPT Chad and she's like I asked Chad what we're going to do about this. Right? And that's
00:19:11 Dan Smitley: I love it.
00:19:11 Dave Hoekstra: oh, it's the it's the best. Like Chad is now like a third member of our marriage. That he is. He's.
00:19:17 Dan Smitley: So my wife,
00:19:18 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:19:18 Dan Smitley: it's her best friend. She literally says, I was talking to my best friend today and I know it's not Stephanie. It's ChatGPT like
00:19:24 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:19:24 Dan Smitley: that's who she's talking to.
00:19:25 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:19:25 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:19:26 Dave Hoekstra: So she's like, I asked Chad about this, and Chad
00:19:28 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:19:28 Dave Hoekstra: says to do this, and, um, and so that natural language is I think if we are able to figure out how to turn natural language into science, this is where we might be able to bridge the gap. And what I mean by this is instead of instead of, like you said, whispering like, never move. Dave's lunch, we
00:19:52 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:19:52 Dave Hoekstra: can we can say to a natural language processing, um, please put it in your rules to never move this person's lunch when I ask you to optimize
00:20:04 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:20:05 Dave Hoekstra: and it goes, oh, okay, I know to go in and lock that. But the tool has to support that. That piece and those automation steps underneath the hood are still just automation steps that require this to do. And so and I think that's kind of where Calabria wants to take this journey. Right. A little bit is to
00:20:21 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:20:21 Dave Hoekstra: be kind of all right. AI is never, ever going to be able to understand that we were in between marketing managers right now. And we're we're we're not doing this process. So the forecast is going to suffer. I mean, that's still going to I mean, maybe someday, but that we're talking about Keanu Reeves and Matrix kind of stuff at that point. Um, but what I think it can do is really reduce the amount of work that it used to take to do kind of these manual updates and tasks. And I love your point about it's the SOPs and the the crap we have to write down is,
00:21:02 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:21:02 Dave Hoekstra: is, is the stuff that I may or may help us. Because if I can say to AI once, Make sure that this report is in this inbox every Wednesday morning
00:21:16 Dan Smitley: Right?
00:21:17 Dave Hoekstra: without fail. And I says, gotcha. Then we're talking real results. We've got a ways to
00:21:23 Dan Smitley: 100%.
00:21:23 Dave Hoekstra: go to get there. But I think that's what that's where what we're going to see about this. Right. And you said
00:21:30 Dan Smitley: 100%.
00:21:31 Dave Hoekstra: and you said while we were talking, um, and I like
00:21:34 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:21:34 Dave Hoekstra: this quote. Um, I can't replace a talented human.
00:21:39 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:21:39 Dave Hoekstra: What did you mean by that?
00:21:44 Dan Smitley: Humanity just kind of is more complex than we give ourselves credit for. Right. Like as individuals, I simplify you. I know you in one context
00:21:54 Dave Hoekstra: Um.
00:21:54 Dan Smitley: WFM Calabria smile big personality. That's that's the whole context. And I think I got a little bit
00:22:01 Dave Hoekstra: I
00:22:01 Dan Smitley: more
00:22:01 Dave Hoekstra: don't
00:22:01 Dan Smitley: like
00:22:02 Dave Hoekstra: know.
00:22:02 Dan Smitley: last time we hung out, I heard about your wife and how you guys travel. And I think that's what I mean is as complex as I can possibly get. I still think the complexity of human will be greater than I can get to. And I think in the end that it simply cannot replace us fully. We will be in the loop because of these nuances. And then when you go in at scale of hundreds or thousands of employees trying to figure out the best, quote unquote, best scheduling process, best forecasting process, I just think the complexity is, is is too much. Um, coming back to your thoughts around, like, you know, the the automation, the science and the art, I think one thing I would love to see coming out, maybe you guys are doing it. I'll tee this up. If you guys are great, I would love to hear about it. I
00:22:53 Dave Hoekstra: That's
00:22:53 Dan Smitley: just want
00:22:53 Dave Hoekstra: okay.
00:22:54 Dan Smitley: somebody.
00:22:54 Dave Hoekstra: We can we can cut this out if we want to. Right. So
00:22:56 Dan Smitley: Yeah. Exactly
00:22:56 Dave Hoekstra: no, no,
00:22:57 Dan Smitley: right.
00:22:57 Dave Hoekstra: no,
00:22:57 Dan Smitley: If you guys
00:22:57 Dave Hoekstra: I
00:22:57 Dan Smitley: aren't
00:22:57 Dave Hoekstra: would
00:22:58 Dan Smitley: doing
00:22:58 Dave Hoekstra: never
00:22:58 Dan Smitley: it, we'll
00:22:58 Dave Hoekstra: I would
00:22:58 Dan Smitley: just cut
00:22:58 Dave Hoekstra: never.
00:22:58 Dan Smitley: it out. Like, what I would love is a an AI. That is a it's kind of an assistant or a partner to me that that
00:23:08 Dave Hoekstra: Mhm.
00:23:08 Dan Smitley: sits next to me, right? So maybe is it replacing me? But someone that I go to that is like, help me understand X. Like I think I'm looking for patterns that I'm not seeing. I think there's some efficiencies here that I could gain. I think we can do something a little bit differently and to be able to interact with AI, almost as if it was another analyst sitting next to me in the trenches. Maybe they do the work for me,
00:23:32 Dave Hoekstra: Yep.
00:23:32 Dan Smitley: but I'm really looking for like almost a thought partner.
00:23:35 Dave Hoekstra: Yes. Um and yeah collaborator is doing that. We're actively working on it. Uh, I would say that we are starting with the agent versus
00:23:45 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:23:46 Dave Hoekstra: the
00:23:46 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:23:46 Dave Hoekstra: analyst.
00:23:47 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:23:47 Dave Hoekstra: Uh, it's a little bit easier. Our automations are a little bit more in tune with what happens at the agent level versus necessarily a forecast or a schedule, right. So we're looking at, um, at the agent level, for example, using AI to have the agent just say, can I have next Tuesday off? and I says yes, you can done like that's it. We had we just had a 22nd conversation or, you know, hey, uh, has my after call work time gone up in the last two weeks? Here's your data. Right. Those types of
00:24:20 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:24:20 Dave Hoekstra: things.
00:24:21 Dan Smitley: Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
00:24:22 Dave Hoekstra: Whether you call it that that natural language processing of queries. Yes. And then that's going to evolve up the chain into the group. And I don't think it's because we don't want to do this for the analyst. I think it's a it's lower hanging fruit at the moment.
00:24:40 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:24:40 Dave Hoekstra: Um, to, to
00:24:40 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:24:41 Dave Hoekstra: get to and then write it. We've had conversations. How how do we use AI in WFM? And I mean, probably like almost with every other WFM vendor, we have really, really talented, smart WFM people that just saturate this entire company. And we all got our heads together. We're like, this is the same problem we've struggled to answer. It's like, AI, AI I fits so much better on what Calabritto does on the QM and analytics side,
00:25:09 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:25:09 Dave Hoekstra: because it's language processing and it can do contextual things like that, but give AI a spreadsheet of historical data for the last two years and say, figure this out. It's it's it's not quite where we need it to be yet, but that doesn't mean every single day somebody singing of a new way to put these pieces together. So I mean, hopefully that kind of answers your question because like, we we're not immune to the AI transformation that is happening at the moment. But we're also, um, we're trying to be very thoughtful about it and not just take it.
00:25:47 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:25:47 Dave Hoekstra: AI shotgun and blast it at anything that that
00:25:50 Dan Smitley: Right.
00:25:50 Dave Hoekstra: works, right? We want it to be useful. We want people to go, this is great. I mean, I'll be honest. You know, for our customers out there, we have trouble getting them to adopt the non-ai features sometimes, right? We build these things into our product and we're super excited about it. And the long tail of adoption is so slow. Uh, AI is probably not going to be any different, so we just have to we have to we just have to keep building things that people go, I use this, and then we're good. That's that's where the conversation has to start is am I going to
00:26:22 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:26:22 Dave Hoekstra: use it? And if the answer is yes, then we're going to we're going to look into building it.
00:26:27 Dan Smitley: And if anyone's listening in and they're like, oh my God, just like, would someone please build it? Why is it so complicated? Go back what, two or 3 or 4 episodes to? Like your conversation with Irina about the challenges of product roadmaps and like the complexities of figuring out what's the right thing so you have your challenges of like, what is the right feature function? What are they actually going to use? Because it continues to blow my mind. How many people do their forecasting outside of their WFM tools that like, somehow they've perfected their 17 tab Excel spreadsheet and they trust it way more than these latest pieces. So I think that
00:27:02 Dave Hoekstra: Well.
00:27:02 Dan Smitley: the hesitancy around it is well put.
00:27:06 Dave Hoekstra: Let me tell you a story, Dan. So
00:27:08 Dan Smitley: Okay.
00:27:09 Dave Hoekstra: and keep in mind, this is coming from someone who is an evangelist of a WFM product and
00:27:15 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:27:15 Dave Hoekstra: loves
00:27:15 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:27:16 Dave Hoekstra: loves the and and from a forecasting perspective, I can't imagine anybody not trusting the WFM forecast. But there's a there's a big but in there, right? So here's
00:27:28 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:27:28 Dave Hoekstra: my story. A few years ago, I was at a trade show and a guy came up to me and he he was asking questions about forecasting, and he says, you know, what kind of inputs can your forecasting engine accept? And I said, well, pretty basic. We we ingest the information from the ACD and we bring it in. And he said, well, what about other factors? And I say give me an example. He said, I don't know, like website hits or new account signups. And I said, I said, well it doesn't do that natively, right? That work does still need to be kind of done outside the tool about how it will influence and affect the forecast. And he said he's like, man, I could build that in like six weeks and sell it as a product. I was like, I said, please do. I said, but I, I will tell you what will happen. You will spend six weeks building your process and you will go out and you'll finally get your first customer meeting, right. And you'll walk into the customer just ready to go, super confident. And you will say to the that this is what our product does. And look, these are the input methodologies that it can accept. We can accept website hits, we can accept account signups, we can accept this and they'll go, man, that is really cool. But we need it to we need it to focus on the number of people that walk in foot, traffic wise to our retail stores. And you go, okay, I can build that, and you go and build that. Customer number two, they're going to look at everything and they're going to say, okay, those are great. But here's the three that we need. And they're totally different than the other ones that you've built. Every single customer you go to are going to add in a new sort of function. Right. And so and he was like literally you could see his machine working. He was like, yeah, I'm going to rethink this, right. Because it conceptually and this is what I learned, transitioning from working in the contact center to working for a vendor is that your use cases are incredibly niche, no matter where you are. And when you get outside and and the vendor has to build something that works, it's like I think about with Apple all the time, why doesn't Apple just buy X product and integrate it into because they got to translate it into about 118 languages. They've got to bug test it in 18 retroactive. I mean, it is insane amount of work to put something in. And it's no different with forecasting, right? Um, and so I understand Stand why people do their forecasting outside of the tool. I truly do, because the tool can't always accept all the input mechanisms, especially that complex contact center. We have larger contact centers that have 80 different inputs that factor and affect their forecast that you just can't build into a quote unquote, off the shelf WFM tool.
00:30:23 Dan Smitley: It's very kind of you. I appreciate you giving so many people grace and giving them an out. I have also seen mid-sized to small organizations who are not that complex,
00:30:35 Dave Hoekstra: Fair. Fair.
00:30:36 Dan Smitley: who can. And it goes back to I and the challenge we have in getting people to adopt it. Right. Like it.
00:30:44 Dave Hoekstra: What I.
00:30:45 Dan Smitley: Our lives are using it. And I don't know about your wife, but my wife doesn't love technology. So the fact that she's in it and using it, and I've shown her some use cases, she loves it. Um, that's wonderful, but I think you mean we're almost three years into this massive ChatGPT revolution, right? When there. What was it, 3.5 that came out, I think, in Q4 of 22. Um, and how many people still don't use it? Like, it just blows my mind. The simple, basic, hey, this is what I've got in my pantry. What should I make tonight? Like,
00:31:14 Dave Hoekstra: Yes.
00:31:14 Dan Smitley: that's such a low bar and people just don't think about it. And so I think a lot of the features and functions in WFM is we just don't think about it. We have we know how to create a grocery list. We know how to create our forecasts. And so we just keep doing it. And I think your concern around adoption of AI is, is spot on. As much as you want to provide grace to those that are not leveraging the tools fully. Um, but I do think that's a huge hurdle. And so I would say one thing. If people are listening and they're not leveraging AI, like that would be my tip. Like, you don't have to go learn Python to start using AI. Just start using it in your day to day. Just
00:31:54 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:31:54 Dan Smitley: start with your grocery list. What I what I love to do I actually just posted a couple things on LinkedIn about how I use ChatGPT to do content creation. And so a lot of people are probably like, oh, well, that means he's not writing it himself. I use it as my thought partner. I give it all of my content. I say, this is my thought. This is everything I want to say about real time adherence and creating a culture of niceness or whatever, I don't know. Um, and then I say, ask me some questions. What do you need to know to help me craft a better article? And it will ask me these prompts. And I'm like, okay, these are my thoughts. And then I'm like, okay, try to weave in those new thoughts into this and give me your first draft. And then I'm like,
00:32:35 Dave Hoekstra: Yep.
00:32:35 Dan Smitley: okay, I like this, I like this, right? But I don't think enough people are using it because they're just not thinking about it. And that would I would really love for people to at least start playing with it. Because your question at the top of the interview, what do we want people? What do we want AI to do for us? I think most people just don't know because they're not playing with it and they just have no clue what its current capabilities are.
00:32:56 Dave Hoekstra: Well. And you're not wrong. But let me again. This is my nature as an empath. I'm gonna I'm gonna. The other side of the coin, right? Is
00:33:05 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:33:07 Dave Hoekstra: unique and original. Human thought is really rare, right?
00:33:12 Dan Smitley: Mhm. Mhm.
00:33:13 Dave Hoekstra: And we, we as a society have started not valuing original thought as much as we have valued sharing someone else's original thought. Right. I'll give you a great example. Literally, like last week, I think I was perusing Reddit and there was a thread about this insane life hack. And it again, this was like Plato's cave analogy. It woke me up. It was flossing in the shower, right? It was like, put your floss in the shower and and you will floss more. And I was like, oh my God, that's the best idea I've ever heard. I was like, that is amazing. Because yes, and I moved my flosser to the shower and I flossed every day for the last like three weeks, which I've never done in my entire life. I've been more of a like, floss every three days. Kind of a guy, right? Because I forget. I just straight up forget. And I think for those people that are that nobody wakes up in the morning and says, okay, I'm gonna brainstorm about a new way to use AI today, right? But when they read
00:34:23 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:34:23 Dave Hoekstra: a tweet or they read and that's when this inspiration and spark happens. So what I would say, for those of you who the tip you gave, I think is great, you've got to use it. But, you know, tip 1.5 is find other people who are doing this and, and, and get into their wheelhouse and find the information. Like listening to this kind of podcast. Right. It's it's we we need to be better at sharing our successes with what we can do. Not just with AI, but with everything. Right? I mean, we try with our customers trying discussion boards and, and, and, and customer meetup groups and all kinds of stuff that help help people share great ideas. Um, and it's pretty amazing how often a customer will say, oh my gosh, I had no idea that was part of your tool. And it's been around for five years, right? The the knowledge refresh does not happen
00:35:24 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:35:24 Dave Hoekstra: at the rate that I think you and I are. And I think I love that you kind of reference your wife. My wife is like a litmus test to technology as well. Right. And if my my wife will not use something unless it is absolutely crazy useful. I think you and I are like, this is really cool, but I'm going to have to work a little bit to really kind of figure out where my wife will not give it the time of day unless it delivers. And that's why her usage of ChatGPT really only underscores how important that technology is going to be for us coming forward. Okay, so that was tip number one. I think coming out of this, I'd love to give the audience some tips on like what to do. So tip number one is kind of use it like get in there, get your hands dirty. What about what. Do you have any more tips for our groups?
00:36:10 Dan Smitley: Yeah. So. So again, we have a challenge in consideration considering how to use AI. Right. And I think I know I have felt the pressure from executive leadership to say, just get in there, just figure out I like and I know others that are feeling that same pressure from from leadership to say like, we are missing the boat. If you don't insert AI around your IVR, around your QM process, or just get it in there, figure it out. Uh, and those are consistently the organizations that are getting it wrong and are having to scrap what they've tried and start all over again and again and again. The ones that I've seen be the most successful are those that are going really slow and don't mean that they're resistant. I think there's a big consideration there, right? They're
00:36:59 Dave Hoekstra: Right?
00:36:59 Dan Smitley: not being resistant to the change, resistant to the technology. They're simply being strategic and thoughtful. Where do we want to be? Yes, the technology
00:37:07 Dave Hoekstra: Yes.
00:37:07 Dan Smitley: is going to change, but we want to first build here and then expand a little bit and then expand a little bit and then keep rolling. And they're not just trying to go after it because it's the quick grab. So I would say those maybe that are past just I use it a little bit. And now I'm being asked to insert it into my organization as best as you can. Try to push back to say, but why? What are we trying to do here? What is it we're trying to solve? And is this simply us chasing a new shiny thing and inserting it into our organization, or was this actually going to be part of our strategy? And does it actually get us to where we want to be through your five years from now?
00:37:42 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. Test. iterate. Release test. Iterate. Release. Right. It's just kind of. But one of the things I always tell customers, and not just with AI, is if it's been two weeks since you changed something that's too long, right? And
00:37:56 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:37:57 Dave Hoekstra: it doesn't, you know, it could be like, oh, add add a 15 extra 15 minute window to where your breaks could land, right. That's a change, right? Those are those are little things that you. And then you can peel it back if you need to. Right. So it's the same thing with AI now. I mean, granted, AI is so still relatively new that most of the total market of even just WFM, most of the total market doesn't even really have access to using some of this stuff. But within the next six months, you will
00:38:28 Dan Smitley: Mm.
00:38:28 Dave Hoekstra: there will be AI tools landing right on your desktop that you are going to be using. And I think that's a great point. Use it, test it, go slow, just like you would with any other new feature is, you know, you know, you can't just release it to everybody but go slow. Okay, I love that. And I think you had a third. You had a third tip that I think you wanted to you wanted to bring to the table. What was that?
00:38:51 Dan Smitley: So I was just chatting with another WFM kind of expert in the field, and we were talking about a similar vein of discussion, like where where's WFM going? And my perspective was, um, WFM needs to continue to focus on the humanity. Human centered WFM. Forecasting, scheduling RTA with people in mind. And he's like, no, like it's automation. It's APIs. It's doing more with less. It's figuring out how to get your forecasting and scheduling done as fast as possible. And I just fundamentally agreed with him. Like, I'm not opposed to automation and the AI improvements. My suggestion is let's keep humanity not just in the loop, but at the center of our efficiencies. So going back to SOPs and trying to automate, I love that. Let's get rid of the crap that our analysts do that are just mindless. How many hours in all of our teams have been spent copying and pasting from one data source to another, just so that we can throw it into a graph and put it in an email. Like there's five steps that are unnecessary. And yet that's what we do. Let's automate it. Let's get rid of it. That's wonderful. My concern is when we go towards this automation and AI, and we now say, great, now that all those steps are gone, let's get rid of people. Now that all those steps are gone, we aren't going to upskill anybody. We're not going to allow them to go after new challenges. We're not going to test them to try to figure out how else they can add value. Instead, we say automation. Great. Let's give it to the bottom line. And in that, that for me that's a challenge. So my tip is as we're going slow, as we're leveraging and testing and trying to use it. Let's keep chewing on the question how does this benefit people's lives, whether it's the employees, the analysts, or even our customers?
00:40:46 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. And like my brain, as you're saying, this is like, why can't it be both? And I think I know the reason
00:40:51 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:40:51 Dave Hoekstra: why it can't be both. It can be both if if the APIs and the automation and the really underneath the hood stuff, the focus is, is making someone's day to day easier, smarter,
00:41:10 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:41:10 Dave Hoekstra: right?
00:41:11 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:41:12 Dave Hoekstra: It it can't be both. If APIs automation is all about reducing headcount. Right.
00:41:19 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:41:20 Dave Hoekstra: So we hear that a lot. AI is going to take our jobs. We're nobody you know, I mean, the day that a really large contact center organization can have a one person WFM department, okay. I mean, there are people out there that would like, sign me up. That's what I want, right? Like it's possible. I mean, yes, it's possible, but only if we're so aggressively. I don't want to say evil, but so aggressively focused on reducing headcount. And that's not what we want to do, right? We do need to have humanity in there. But like you said, I mean, the natural progression, Dan, of
00:42:02 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:42:02 Dave Hoekstra: reducing the amount of hours it takes to run a report, reducing the amount of time it takes to create a bid, you know, reducing all of this stuff, it's going to naturally eventually reduce headcount, right. And that's that's what it's always been about. Right. The dark secret of workforce management is, is answering all of the interactions with, with as little money spent as possible. That's always been the seedy underbelly of our business. And that's the way it will continue to be. But we can't. We can't lose sight of the fact that all through this chain is a is humanity. And you know, there's going to we talk about AI agents and we talk about, you know, automation in the the the call handling process and how I used to I think you and I talked about this when we were in Saint Paul. I used to love getting the call that said, hey, where do I send a payment? Right. Nobody nobody calls an asset anymore. But hey, guess what? We still have agents, right? We still we have shrunk down the number of things that happen. But we still have agents because there are still complicated problems that need to be solved with humanity. And it's the same in WFM. It's the same in QM. It's that same exact process. So I think you're right. Keep it human centered is a great tip that do these things to excuse me, to free up your your talented humans. Right. If you have a talented human who's spending 32 hours a week copying and pasting spreadsheets, you're wasting a talented human. So how do you free up that talented human to do things that humanity needs to look at that. If you look at it with that goal, I think we're in a really good shape.
00:43:48 Dan Smitley: 100%. I think for me, because likely who we're talking to are not the C-suite, right? Likely. Who's listening to us right now? Managers, maybe some directors of workforce management. And you're what my message is to them is try to push for that humanity. I'm not saying we can't have that automation, right. Like, I want that. I don't want all the copying and pasting. The challenge I have is I do see so many organizations with leadership that is saying all I care about is returning shareholder value at the like as much as possible, and they will cut deep. And I think you and I and so many other influencers and thought leaders in this space are like, oh, Automation is going to take some of the easy stuff away, but what's left over is really complicated, and we can upskill our team and they're going to be even doing harder and better things, and it's going to be more fulfilling. And personally, I'm just not seeing it. Like, personally, what I'm seeing is just the cut that they don't get upskilled they don't get the cooler, better, harder stuff. It's cuts and cuts and maybe I'm a little bit more pessimistic. Maybe I just have gotten a little jaded through the AI discussion.
00:44:56 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:44:57 Dan Smitley: Uh, but I just want to maybe encourage people to pause to say, like, let's go hard for automation, let's go hard for efficiency. WFM has always been about that. Exactly what you said. Getting what we can done as quickly, as efficiently, as cheaply as possible. Yes. But I think there is more and more conversation around at what cost of the employee about
00:45:20 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:45:20 Dan Smitley: the customer experience. Employee experience. And that's what I just want to lose sight of that as we go down this path. Let's keep that as part of the conversation.
00:45:27 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. I mean, you need to be smart. about what that headcount reduction actually looks like long term. You know, short term
00:45:34 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:45:34 Dave Hoekstra: short term gains for long term pain is is a real problem, right? And you just don't want to get in that cycle of like, oh crap. Now we need to rehire these people that we that we let go two years ago. Because it's clearly I mean, how many times have I have you seen it? You know, once you're in the corporate world for long enough, you see marketing terms shrink and then they grow back. And then, you know, sales teams shrink and then they grow back. Right? So you you need to be very intentional about if it is about cost, it
00:46:06 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:46:07 Dave Hoekstra: can't just be about the short term cost. It's got to be about the long term cost too. So now
00:46:11 Dan Smitley: Thoughtful
00:46:12 Dave Hoekstra: this
00:46:12 Dan Smitley: thoughtfulness
00:46:12 Dave Hoekstra: this.
00:46:12 Dan Smitley: I think that's what we're talking about.
00:46:14 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, absolutely. Um, okay. So I feel like this has been a fantastic conversation. I just and I feel like, you know, Dan, you and I know each other pretty well. We could probably go on for another six hours, but in the interest
00:46:27 Dan Smitley: Yep.
00:46:27 Dave Hoekstra: of keeping this manageable, we should probably start to wrap up. Um,
00:46:31 Dan Smitley: So?
00:46:32 Dave Hoekstra: I wanted to what I like to do with each of our guests, especially ones that have been in the context in our world for a while, is I have the call center lifer quiz. So, um, if you haven't cheated and gone and listened to other episodes with it, I'd like to throw the
00:46:48 Dan Smitley: 100%.
00:46:48 Dave Hoekstra: call center lifer. Uh, so hopefully you haven't heard the questions, or at least you haven't given much thought to it. But, uh, so first question for the call center lifer, what's your favorite KPI?
00:47:00 Dan Smitley: It's a collection of them, and I don't even think it's
00:47:02 Dave Hoekstra: Nope.
00:47:02 Dan Smitley: a metric,
00:47:02 Dave Hoekstra: You
00:47:02 Dan Smitley: not
00:47:02 Dave Hoekstra: got to
00:47:03 Dan Smitley: a
00:47:03 Dave Hoekstra: pick
00:47:03 Dan Smitley: KPI.
00:47:03 Dave Hoekstra: one. You gotta pick one.
00:47:06 Dan Smitley: Um, employee satisfaction. And
00:47:07 Dave Hoekstra: Okay.
00:47:08 Dan Smitley: it's not a KPI. Does it count?
00:47:10 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah. That counts.
00:47:11 Dan Smitley: It's not
00:47:11 Dave Hoekstra: Heck
00:47:11 Dan Smitley: a.
00:47:11 Dave Hoekstra: yeah, it counts.
00:47:11 Dan Smitley: Okay.
00:47:12 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah,
00:47:12 Dan Smitley: Okay.
00:47:13 Dave Hoekstra: I.
00:47:13 Dan Smitley: Employee satisfaction 100%.
00:47:14 Dave Hoekstra: Okay. That works. Um, what was the moment in your career where you said, I think I like this?
00:47:21 Dan Smitley: To be honest, it was really late in my career, like
00:47:24 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:47:25 Dan Smitley: I Really was. I was probably in WFM for 12, 15 years or something, and it was when I started to do some like internal consulting and really started to kind of bridge the my intuition around people and how I could lay out structures and systems and processes to help make improvements. So I'm like, oh, I see who I'm helping with better processes and systems, and I actually am making a difference. That's when I was like, mm, I like this.
00:47:53 Dave Hoekstra: You guys can't see Dan right now because this is an audio podcast. But I have him on video and he literally was doing the wax on, wax off thing with both hands.
00:48:01 Dan Smitley: It's true.
00:48:01 Dave Hoekstra: There was a there's a little bit of a full circle connected there with The Karate Kid coming in. Uh, okay. Next question. Uh, who is the person who has had the most impact on your career?
00:48:14 Dan Smitley: Uh, first person that comes to many good leaders, but the person that probably has had the biggest impact on me actually was a direct report of mine. So Claudia was a direct report of mine. Incredibly aspirational. She wants to go after big things. Um, and she pushed me to become a better leader so that she could become as good of an individual contributor and eventually people leader herself as she could be. Like, I had to race to stay ahead of her because of how fast she was wanting to move. And I and I love the challenge. And honestly, we still connect weekly. Like we haven't worked together for four years, but we still connect weekly and she still pushes me to move faster.
00:48:54 Dave Hoekstra: It's amazing. I love that, that servant leadership, but it really shows the value of that competition, pushing
00:49:01 Dan Smitley: Yes.
00:49:01 Dave Hoekstra: people like like guys, you should love competition, love. Somebody comes in and threatens you. You should embrace that and lean into that so hard. I love that answer. That's great,
00:49:11 Dan Smitley: Exactly.
00:49:11 Dave Hoekstra: Dan, and hopefully we can give a shout out to Claudia, uh, through
00:49:15 Dan Smitley: Yeah,
00:49:15 Dave Hoekstra: this.
00:49:15 Dan Smitley: yeah.
00:49:15 Dave Hoekstra: Okay. Um, did you ever wear the headset
00:49:18 Dan Smitley: I did.
00:49:19 Dave Hoekstra: and said, what was your first agent job?
00:49:22 Dan Smitley: I was technical support for dial up internet companies, so they would try to connect in. They'd get an error, they'd read back that error. I still remember some of the code 691 was a username password error 678I think was something about like a line mismatch or something like that. So I would just have these memorized. I wouldn't even pay attention. I would just go through the steps because I knew them so quickly. I was literally playing the board game risk while taking the phone calls because it was so automatic. But yep, I was doing dial up internet. Tech support?
00:49:54 Dave Hoekstra: And did you did you have your own computer in front of
00:49:57 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:49:57 Dave Hoekstra: you during that
00:49:58 Dan Smitley: Yes.
00:49:58 Dave Hoekstra: time? Okay. Because
00:49:59 Dan Smitley: Yes.
00:49:59 Dave Hoekstra: I know some of those early call center jobs. You just got a phone, so.
00:50:03 Dan Smitley: No, no, we did have I mean, I don't know how much I was looking at. I was looking at my board game risk
00:50:07 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:50:07 Dan Smitley: and figuring out how to take over the world. But yeah
00:50:09 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:50:10 Dan Smitley: I did have a computer.
00:50:11 Dave Hoekstra: Okay. All right. Last question. Um,
00:50:13 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:50:14 Dave Hoekstra: what's the biggest mistake that you've made in your career that others could learn from?
00:50:19 Dan Smitley: So there's a couple mistakes I've had to apologize for professionally. Like I've had to go back to people and say like I was wrong. This shouldn't have happened. I think my biggest mistake was overindexing on people. So I was just espousing the importance of people and humanity. I overindexed and was providing too much flexibility, too much autonomy with schedule flexibility. And people were taking advantage of it, and it was causing the company to lose a ton of money, and it was going to lose people jobs because we weren't controlling it enough. And so one of probably my biggest mistake and my biggest lesson learned was, yes, you want to go after schedule autonomy and flexibility, but it has to be within bounds and reasons. There's a there's a tension that needs to be held. It's not just about giving people what they want, it's what they want while providing the customer what they need, while providing the EBITDA that your organization needs.
00:51:10 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah, I, I, I struggled mightily with that one too. Uh, I was mine was uh, as a manager, I was just. I absorbed way too. Have you seen that meme where the guy's shielding off the. You know, somebody and all the knives or the arrows are hitting? That was
00:51:29 Dan Smitley: Yep.
00:51:30 Dave Hoekstra: I. I absorbed all of the criticism and didn't pass any of it along to actually the person that actually needed it, because I was really uncomfortable having those conversations. And
00:51:40 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:51:40 Dave Hoekstra: man, uh,
00:51:41 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:51:41 Dave Hoekstra: like to the point where I'm terrified of being a manager ever again. Uh, like that. So but I think things would be different. It's been I've grown a little bit since then. Okay, that is the call center life or quiz. Thank you for allowing us some time to, uh, to talk through it. Um, okay. So obviously we're pretty close to wrapping up. I always like to give our guests kind of the final thought. So if I said, Dan, a final thought
00:52:05 Dan Smitley: Mhm.
00:52:05 Dave Hoekstra: to our listeners, listeners, what would you say?
00:52:09 Dan Smitley: And through this conversation my final thought is be thoughtful be intentional. Whether it's how you're thinking about approaching new technology how you're thinking about providing flexibility to people. How you're wanting to lead people smartly. I think there's too much of us that simply go after kind of the easy button or the first thing in front of us, whether that is we've always done it this way, so it's easy or I love new shiny things and that's easy. Be thoughtful. Be intentional about how we lead, how we, um, go through our processes, um, and reach out for help. I think that's the if I can have like a secondary it's
00:52:45 Dave Hoekstra: Yeah.
00:52:46 Dan Smitley: it's reach out for help when you're trying to be thoughtful and intentional and not sure what to do, reach out to some others. Reach out to
00:52:52 Dave Hoekstra: And
00:52:52 Dan Smitley: experts.
00:52:52 Dave Hoekstra: the network is powerful. Uh,
00:52:54 Dan Smitley: Yes.
00:52:55 Dave Hoekstra: and and and they usually like to help. So don't don't, uh, don't not leverage the network. All right, Dan,
00:53:02 Dan Smitley: Yeah.
00:53:02 Dave Hoekstra: this has been so much fun.
00:53:04 Dave Hoekstra: I think we went longer than we even remotely intended to, but that's just a natural consequence of when you you get something that you really want to talk about. I hope that, uh, you guys have had a really good, um, idea of what I is, kind of what the next level is going to look for. And, you know, by the time this podcast even drops, I is going to have changed a little bit. We're going to have more conversations as we continue to go. So Dan, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, we're having a really good time and we'll have to do it again sometime. But I know you're always game. So thanks so much for spending some time with us.
00:53:37 Dan Smitley: Thanks man. This was awesome, I appreciate it.
00:53:38 Dave Hoekstra: All right. Well, so to listeners, thank you guys so much for spending some time with us. It always means a lot that you give us any of your time. Uh, my name is Dave from Calabrio. And as always, if you need anything or want to be a part of the podcast going forward, uh, contact information for me is really easy to find. So let me know if you have an idea for an episode or something you'd like to talk about. Please. Feedback is always welcome. So thanks again to our our guests, Dan Smitley, who spent some time with us today. My name is Dave. Thank you guys. Everybody have a great rest of your day. Great rest of your week and we'll talk to you again soon. This has been working smarter with Calabrio.
